Monday, September 17, 2007

Chaplain fired for praying in Jesus' name....

"My Jesus, My Freedom, My Stand"

In Florida, a hospital chaplain was fired for praying in Jesus' name. It has now become more common to forbid praying in Jesus' name ... they have forbidden Staunton City Council and Augusta Board of Supervisors from doing so ... a Navy chaplain was fired for doing it ... now a hospital chaplain.
Clergy and citizens from over 30 churches [gathered] ... to march around the hospital ... on Saturday, September 15, starting from the steps of Leesburg City Hall. The marchers [walked] in silent prayer for two-miles around the South Campus of the hospital, wearing T-shirts emblazoned with the rallying cry, "My Jesus, My Freedom, My Stand."

Public outcry in support of Chaplain Harvey has already resulted in the sudden resignation of hospital CEO Louis Bremer, the same man who publicly supported Human Resource director Darlene Stone who fired Chaplain Harvey for praying in Jesus name.
Others joined in the march.
Former Navy Chaplain Gordon James Klingenschmitt, who made national headlines after facing court-martial for praying in Jesus name in uniform, [joined] the march. "We want Chaplain Harvey reinstated," Kingenschmitt said, "The fact CEO Louis Bremer resigned in the face of public scandal should serve as a warning to employers everywhere, that the American public will not tolerate religious discrimination against chaplains or any employees who pray in Jesus name, or share their faith in public."
It is time to stand up for you believe in, America.

Ward View: Jesus Said There Would Be Days Like This


kestrel9000 said...

I believe in this:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Happy Constitution Day, Lynn.

I also believe in this:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

You're right. It's time for us to stand up for what we believe in.
As a member of Americans United, and a believer in religious freedom (as opposed who use that concept as a skirt behind which to hide while they attempt to turn my country into a theocracy) I demand robust and strictly enforced church/state separation, and the termination you describe was entirely appropriate.
Now if we can shut down the apocalyptic Christian Embassy in the Pentagon, perhaps we can stop this insane President from beginning war with Iran to bring about the Rapture, proving once AGAIN that the religious conservatives have FAR more in common with AlQaida than any American progressive.

Lynn R. Mitchell said...

Eddie, calling our President "insane" only weakens your argument and makes people take you less seriously.

Thomas Jefferson had no intention of allowing the government to interfere with public religious practices. The First Amendment was enacted to prevent the federal establishment of a national religion such as they had in England ... something Jefferson and the other Founding Fathers felt strongly about.

A Christian chaplain was fired for praying to Christ. What is wrong with this picture? Are we going to fire Buddhists for praying to Buddha, Muslims for praying to Allah, Wiccans for praying to -- who do you pray to?

We are a predominantly Christian country -- estimates are 80% believe in God and Jesus. And, yet, those Christians are being persecuted even as we lean over backwards to be fair to the minority religions.

On public squares the Jewish menorah is allowed, the Muslim half-moon and star is allowed ... but the nativity scene depicting the Christ child is prohibited.

A Christian chaplain prays to Jesus. He does not deserve to be fired from his job for doing so.

This is political correctness run amok.

cafe de emporia said...

Eddie, you're so keen at throwing out might want to try some of these on for size...

Jefferson, as your link alludes to and SWAC Girl speaks on, stated in the Declaration that America is entitled to exist as a power on Earth because of the "Laws of Nature and of Nature's God."

Adams explains that, "'The laws of nature and nature's God'...of course preposes the existence of God, the moral ruler of the universe, and a rule of right and wrong, of just and unjust, binding upon man, preceding the institutions of human society and of government."

Adams and Jefferson both understood that God's laws formed the basis for America's law and government. Even the Mayflower Compact declared that the reason for colonizing in America was solely for the "...glory of God and the advancement of the Christian faith." Their very first act on reaching America was to thank God.

Losing that purpose in life will cause our culture to spiral downwards. Then drugs, pre-martial sex, and criminal activity will become all too commonplace. Without God as the foundation, good and evil become relativistic, meaningless terms.

Former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Alabama Roy Moore, tells us, "This is not a matter of religion, or faith, but of reality...As a society, how have we failed to realize that truth? More importantly, why have we turned our back on the truth about God?"

Spank That Donkey said...

No foundation in Christianity? Try visiting the Supreme Court Building in DC, or gaze up onto the Dome of the Library in Congress.

Lynn R. Mitchell said...

There were 55 Founding Fathers of various religious faiths including Anglicans, Methodists, Calvinists, Lutherans, Catholic, Quaker ... the very foundation of our Nation is Christian.

One of the first official acts of the First Continental Congress was to open in prayer ... prayer which ended with the words, "... the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Savior. Amen."

Virginia's own Patrick Henry, he of "Give me liberty or give me death" fame, said, "It cannot be emphasized too strongly that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity and freedom of worship here."

Note that he says, "People of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity and freedom of worship here." Just as all faiths were given religious freedom in America, it was never expected that those protected religions -- the minority -- would turn on Christians and limit their right to profess Jesus in public.

What are we doing in America? Why are the masses silent? Where are the churches ... those bastions of faith that hide behind their walls instead of joining the fight out in the world ... those who will lose the most if the political correctness continues.

Muslims are being afforded more religious freedom in America today while Christians have their hands tied ... and we meekly accept it? This is a religious war perpetrated by those who would fire a Christian hospital chaplain and a Christian Navy chaplain for praying in the name of Jesus, kick out a state Supreme Court judge for protesting the removal of the Ten Commandments, sue local government for using the name of Jesus in prayer....

The American people had better awaken from their complacency....

cafe de emporia said...

Well, Eddie? Come on buddy...let's have some open debate here. That's the beauty of politics...the open debate...but I guess really, this issue, transcends politics...

dougo said...

Well said kestral.

Harvey was fired because he prayed in Jesus's name and "refused to stop praying any other way -- even among the hospital's non-Christian patients, staff and visitors."

In order words, he was fired for not doing his job, just as Kingenschmitt was fired for not following orders.

You would know this if you consulted sources a little less slanted than "Christian News Wire".

Nice try with the whole Christians are persecuted thing.

cafe de emporia said...

What are you saying by your last sentence?

James Atticus Bowden said...

Kestrel 9000: Re: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

The noun is Congress, not the courts. The feee exercise of religion includes praying in the name of Jesus. Firing a hospital chaplain for doing so isn't part of Congress not establishing an official Federal state-church.

You know all the states had offical churches when the Constitution was ratified by the soveriegn states - except Virginia which had just passed Jefferson's bill for religious tolerance. Post the preamble - and see how Christian in worldview that Virginia law is.

Hoobie: Christian persecution is growing in the US. It hasn't reached the absurdity of attacks on religious free speech as in the EU, Canada and Australia, but Liberals are pushing in that direction.

dougo said...

What you call persecution is just a reaction to Christian political views. If Christians want to claim that this country is a Christian nation, that there is no basis for the separation of church and state, no abortion because it violates biblical law, no contraception because it violates biblical law, no use of embryonic stem cells in research because it violates biblical law, anti-evolution/anti-science because of conflict with the Bible, fine. These are political views, and not all are in agreement. There will be vigorous opposition to these views, which you mistakenly interpret as religious persecution.

racerx said...

Like everyone on this board, we all have the options of quoting documentation and perpetuating the he said she said argument. I will offer you my view a couple of definitions and some observations.

My opinion on Christian persecution. To say anyone in America is persecuted because they believe in Jesus Christ is ridiculous. Please look up the definition of persecution.
Google: The term "persecution" derives from the vocabulary of religion and was used to describe the torture and torments inflicted on the early Christians martyrs. In everyday usage, it characterizes all relationships in which one party, the persecutor, pursues the other, the persecuted, with malevolent intentions, cruelty, and hatefulness.

In that definition, I haven't seen a Christian thrown to the lions yet. However, if you or someone has forced your view on someone else claiming Christianity as your reason and that person didn't really like it and kicked sand in your face, then that is not persecution but payback.

Now that we have defined persecution, we need to know who a Christian is as well. has a comprehensive list of definitions and groups that define Christianity differently and the point is that "Christians" can't agree on who is a Christian and who isn't. In my opinion this is one of the reasons some look at faith with skepticism.

So in reality, if no one is really getting persecuted and we all can't agree on who is a Christian and who isn't, the United States of America has done it right. We can go anywhere we want and preach whatever we want, whenever we want. We can be or call anyone bigots, racists, Christians, Muslims, homosexuals, sinners, saints, etc. No one is stopping us from doing that, UNLESS, it infringes on the rights of others.

This is the case with Mr. Harvey. He refused to respect the rights of others and do what he was told by management. This was a morale issue and the complaints weren't just from Jewish people but other versions of Christians. I know you will find this hard to believe, but it's not a Muslim conspiracy! Some versions of Christianity don't believe in being born again and don't take very well to someone telling them they are going to hell if they aren't saved. These are just some of the issues that are underlying this debate and this doesn't include the patient complaints. Imagine you are facing death and someone comes in and instead of comforting you, asks you what sin have you committed that caused this affliction? Or, imagine someone coming into your room and talking about demons and hell fire while you are in a hospital bed facing the eternal question? Better yet, what if you were Jewish or for that matter what if you were Catholic? We can all be offended by someone when it comes to our beliefs.

I can assure you that the context of his reprimand has been taken way out of context. Did the administrator create some unbelievable bulletin board material? You bet, but the intention was to have Mr. Harvey respect other faiths in a group setting. I mean the guy gets paid to pray! But he refused and if the reprimand had been worded correctly, we wouldn't be having this discussion. No one is perfect but the administrator who wrote it has always been an advocate of the Employee, is a Christian, and ALWAYS thinks of others first. Life is ironic but situations like this make us think and that's a good thing.

I hope Mr. Harvey files an EEOC lawsuit so all of his improprieties will become public. And by the way, if Mr. Harvey (he's not much of a chaplain in my opinion and is not a pastor of a church) thinks he is furthering the spirit and the good news of Jesus Christ by "martyring" himself, he isn't. He's just confusing people and using this issue to get his job back. It's not until recently his statement has changed to include the demand of being able to pray in in the name of Jesus Christ. All of the letters that he has published online are all about him. He didn't mention Jesus Christ in any of them. However, I do feel sorry for him that his irrational behavior cost him his job but as you can guess the petition that he had everyone sign to try and get his job back had a request to send donations directly to his house.

This is just another emotional manipulation and in light of the recent religious manipulations on a grander scale, when are we going to wake up? Oh, and the T-Shirts the marchers wore with everything starting with "MY" tells volumes of the mentality we are dealing with. Jesus/God is not yours, mine, or your neighbors, we are His.
Words speak volumes but actions tell more, and I can't wait to see his dirty laundry in public. He might make Ted Haggard look straight. Well, he's probably not that bad ...

Oh, one more thing, a rhetorical question if I may; why haven't the employees at the hospital joined hands and demanded he come back?

cafe de emporia said...

I don't think anyone was trying to use the excuse of being a persecuted Christian. And if anybody did use that word, they were whole heartedly mistaken.

You don't know what it means to be a persecuted Christian. You couldn't handle it. And frankly, I don't believe I, nor a majority of others could either.

Don't throw around the mantra of persecuted Christians as flippantly as you might throw around the mantra of Republicans chicken-hawks. It's not even in the same ballpark--no comparison. And it's a slap in the face to those who HAVE spilled their blood, sweat, tears as they truly were persecuted for their beliefs.

racerx said...

Mr. Maxfield, if those comments were directed at me, you are right, I don't know what it is like to die or be tortured because the state or current regime doesn't like my religion. However, I can also say I've never killed anyone in God's name either.

jalbertbowdenii said...

Hoobie and Racerx: Telling a kid he can't read the Bible during recess or lunch when other kids are reading is wrong. You may not choose to call it persecution, but it is a restriction on the free exercise of religion by the student.

There are many other examples.

cafe de emporia said...

There are more Christian martyrs today than there were in AD 100--
in the day of the Roman Empire. Now in the 21st century,hundreds of thousands of Christians are


around the world